Doberman Pinschers

Detailed Data in Pedigree of Trotyl - Brentina Litter

Ch. Trotyl De Black Shadow DOBEQUEST Pedigree link http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=32700 OFA GOOD	Sire: Ch. Inaqui de Black Shadow WS 149854/01	Sire: Ch. Nello's Lex Luthor	Sire: Arg Ch Will Ross Opium
			Dam: Nello's Eureka Black
		Dam: Cindi De Black Shadow	Sire: Baden Baden Cash
			Dam: Aquarius Tootsie v Ravenswd
	Dam: Jessy De Vulcano	Sire: Marienburg's Argus Wind Magic	Sire Ch. Marienburg's Morocco
			Dam: Paola of Wind Magic
		Dam Cora Mia de Vulcano	Sire: Conan v Andur
			Dam: Best Brown of Red Ghost

Logres’ Brentina OFA GOOD DNA vWD Carrier Mich. St. Thyroid Normal	Sire Ch. Brunswig's Cryptonite OFA Good	Sire CH Beaulane's The Nite Ryder	Sire Ch. Electra's The Windwalker
			Dam CH Beaulane's Nite Moves
		Dam Brunswig's Zephyr	Sire: CH Amulet's Luka of Sno-Glenn CD
			Dam CH Brunswig's Dahlia
	Dam Cambria’s Irish Rose littermate to Ch. Cambria's Irish Rebellion	Sire:Sire CH Cambria's Cavalleria WP542640-13 OFA Excellent	Sire CH Brunswig's Cryptonite OFA Good
			Dam CH Cambria's Mauna Kea OFA Good
		Dam CH Orion's Rasberry Beret WP840694/02 OFA Good	Sire CH Cambria's Cactus Cash OFA Good
			Dam CH Orion's Ultimate Dimension

Brentina and her littermates:

Ch. Logres’ Tungsten (red dog) OFA EXCELLENT DNA vWD Carrier Mich. St. Thyroid Normal

Ch. Logres’ Titanium (red dog ) OFA GOOD DNA vWD Carrier Mich. St. Thyroid Normal

Logres’ Brentano (red dog ) OFA EXCELLENT DNA vWD Carrier Mich. St. Thyroid Normal

Logres’ Brentina (red bitch ) OFA GOOD DNA vWD Carrier Mich. St. Thyroid Normal

Logres’ Morgan Le Fay (red bitch)

Logres' Charisma of Juris (red bitch) DNA vWD Carrier

Logres’ You're It (fawn dog) not tested

*This was written in 2008

With respect to the health testing sometimes seen in stud dog ads, we object to health related data that gives the misleading impression that the data relates to what the stud dog will transmit.

For example, a normal Holter monitor result of your dog belongs in the context of whether you need to medicate your dog, NOT in the context of breeding. An asymptomatic dog may still be passing on DCM and to suggest otherwise is misleading and ultimately a disservice to the breed. It’s fine to Holter your dogs, and any data suggesting heritable heart problems should be available to breeders, but a normal / clear Holter result does not say what the stud dog will transmit; asymptomatic dogs can pass on DCM. Many asymptomatic dogs have gone on to develop DCM and asymptomatic dogs can transmit DCM (because of incomplete penetrance).

Let’s say that you have a six year old dog with a normal / clear Holter ... the owner advertises these results... the breeder thinks “Wonderful, no DCM ” and breeds to the dog. Then, 6 months later, the dog dies of DCM. One could make the argument that the advertising is misleading. Moreover, a two year-old stud dog with a normal or clear Holter is like a teenage boy with a normal PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen) or a colonoscopy on a 20 year old. Neither the PSA or the colonoscopy will tell you if the boy will develop prostate or colon cancer.

OUR policies on selling puppies - a Doberman is not for everyone (updated in October of 2010)

If you are interested in a Logres puppy from an upcoming Logres litter please contact us at logresfarm@hotmail.com.

Logres is committed to breeding healthy sound Dobermans of excellent breed type, who exemplify the great attributes of this wonderful breed. As you can see from our website, we have a specific look that we prefer, which fits within the breed standard. Other breeders may interpret the standard a bit differently, we believe that doing so healthy for the breed as a whole, and wish all breeders well.

With respect to health testing, as most of you reading this know, there are new tests popping up every day, which open a huge can of worms for breeders, prompting an update to this page. It is frustrating to read advocates encouraging that, based upon a single test result, breeders should put a scarlet letter on a breeding animal or breeding line. These advocates ground their cause in what they think is some high ground of ethical superiority. In our opinion, they lack any true understanding of medical science, available testing, genetics and or the limitations of veterinary medical science in 2010. Some tests have value in a breeding program, some do not. Dr. Greenwood is a physician. Unlike many breeders who lack a formal medical ducations, we do the tests that we feel are predictive of what a dog will transmit, based upon current peer-reviewed science. We then use those test results in the manner intended, i.e., they are part of the complex puzzle of a living creature. If you wish to purchase a dog from us we disclose all relevant testing of all dogs in our pedigree. Unfortunately, as of 2010 veterinary medical science simply does not offer the guarantees that we all would like. It is simply not possible to produce a genetically perfect dog and never has been.

The issue is really about making intelligent choices with the data we have and not running off half-cocked, which will do greater damage to our breed. It would be great if building the perfect animal was as simple as people thought, but it is not possible to produce a genetically perfect living thing; God herself can not do it.

With respect to the new test developed by Dr. Meurs at WSU, here is a link from DSNN

Here is the link to the Genetic Mutation Testing Service for Doberman Pinscher Dilated Cardiomyopathy offered by Washington State University / Dr. Meurs

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/deptsVCGL/Doberman/index.aspx

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We are testing all of our dogs... and will use the results to guide future breeding decisions, but as Dr. Meurs stressed rather emphatically, breeders should go slowly, and not simply drop certain dogs and/or breeding lines because of this one test result. Living creatures are complex and so are the problems they face. Remember that it is possible that a dog who is positive may have other attributes that the breed's gene pool needs. The positive heterozygous dog may be of great value to our gene pool for many other reasons, even if he/she has one flaw, and so too (on a case by case basis) may a positive homozygous dog.

Before breeding any dog we consider the whole dog, strengths and weakness, in the context of the breed standard and all other important criteria. We strive to make informed choices about health issues based upon medical science. Genetic testing offers insight, but until we know a great deal more, these tests available as of October 2010 are merely a tool, addressing one aspect of a complex living creature.

As for what other breeder do, while we would like all dogs to be tested, we understand very well the problem with the ignorant mob mentality which frightens many breeders into silence. We will not be calling specific breeders out in public about testing, though there are some high volume dogs that we feel should be tested for the sake of the breed as a whole, i.e. dogs who have sired more than 10 litters in a lifetime like Kafka, Eddie, Dagger, Thunder, Monty, Trotyl Lex Luther and Inaqui, etc. That said, we would be sickened if Dr. Meurs discovery of this ONE mutant gene (that relates to only one part of a complex disease), leads to the mass euthanizing of positive puppies and the abrupt loss of certain bloodlines, which is what Dr. Meurs warned about. We need to go forward wisely, not with ignorance or mob rule.

Breeders will test puppies and those that are positive will be euthanized because there will be no homes for them /and or the liability to the breeder will simply be too high. Given our litigious society, in 2010 no breeder is going to take the risk of being sued for producing an imperfect animal. There are some who think there is such a thing as a genetically perfect dog. That is simply not true. In the quest to produce perfection, there is no longer room for anything less than perfect. Before Dr. Meurs' test, all puppies had a chance. Now a certain group of puppies will no longer have a chance, even though we know that all who are positive will NOT develop the disease because it is more complex then this one gene, Other factors, including environmental factors and even other genes impact the expression of DCM. And there are very likely other genes that also cause DCM. We feel that Dr. Meurs has opened a Pandora’s Box because of all that is still not known about DCM. Dr. Meurs is essentially saying, “Please, don’t go on a witch hunt here folks, but oh btw, here are some pointy hats, broomsticks and matches. Have at it.”

With respect to OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals), as with all who use OFA, those evaluations of our dogs are online and listed on each dog's page. In our opinion, the Orthopedic Foundations for Animals is simply a repository of evaluations of fair, good and excellent hips. Many people who have had experience with OFA over time will have the story where the same dog/same radiograph was “evaluated” as dysplastic or excellent. The OFA “evaluation” is the subjective opinion of a photo of the dog, not an objective evaluation of the dog and/or what he/she will transmit. While an OFA hip evaluation is a tool, and we OFA our dogs, but we do not believe that OFA evals should be elevated to the status of “genetic screening.” OFA evaluations are not a guarantee of what a dog will transmit.

We breed few litters, make every effort to produce happy, healthy ambassadors for the Doberman breed. When/ if health issues pop up, we communicate the concern to all involved. Because of the huge responsibility we feel for each and every puppy produced that descends from our dogs, we almost never allow our dogs to be used at stud. Turning people away is not intended to be an insult, nor is it a reflection on the dog or the owner, though many take it as such. It is simply a reflection of our awareness that there are limits to our time and resources and the number dogs we can realistically be responsible for. We feel a responsibility for each and every puppy that descends from our dogs and try to do our best to support our fellow breeders. To that end, in addition to frequent updates on this website, we own and support Dog Show News Network as a place for the civil informed exchange of information about the breed and dogs in general (with a searchable database). Also we make every effort to keep current formal and informal photos of dogs we own and breed, so that people can see the dogs as they age over time. We also work privately to support our puppy owners. I can not think of a breeder anywhere who has done more.

Though we strive to produce extraordinary quality and would like to see our puppies in the ring, we are not interested in show homes per se. As with any good breeder, we try to screen puppy buyers to assure the best possible homes for our puppies. Sometimes we have been successful in finding good homes for our puppies; sometimes we have failed utterly (and excellent dogs have been ruined by the ignorance and/or arrogance of bad owners). There is really no sure way to predict with certainty the quality of life a potential purchaser will provide.

Purchasing a dog is NOT like buying a new television… where all you have to do is pay a sum of money, open a box, plug the T.V. in and it is a “perfect working machine.”

Dogs are living creatures. They require love and attention. They need our time, commitment, guidance, consistency and discipline to thrive. They also need exercise, good food, fresh air and time to run and play. Early on, a puppy is much like a new born baby… with lots of energy, very demanding and full of needs. The puppy must come first, even before your comfort. You must provide for the puppy’s needs, even if you don’t want to, even if it means getting out of your warm bed at 3:00 a.m. to walk the dog. You must be loving, firm and consistent with the dog, even if you are exhausted and want to scream.

Dobermans in particular require love, human companionship and individual attention... and they require room to gallop and play. So, if you live on a typical city lot and are obsessed with the image you are projecting to the neighborhood (i.e. you must have a H & G home with the attendant chemically treated lawn/carpet) and you value this over the health and fitness of your animals… and your dogs are therefore confined to crate, your garage and/or small exercise yard… please look elsewhere for a Doberman. For that matter, do everyone a favor (most especially the dog) and get a stuffed toy.

Everyone involved in dogs needs a mentor for guidance, someone with years and years of experience, to help you learn how to properly raise and condition a dog (whether it is a pet or a show dog). All dogs (regardless of breed and regardless of age) should be physically fit and healthy every single day of their lives, irrespective of whether they are being shown or are simply beloved pets. That means you must attend to your dog - every day - for as long as the dog lives. That is a life-time commitment of many years. It means a change in life style, and it can be a huge inconvenience if you are not accustomed to putting someone (or something) before your own needs and interests.

The care and conditioning of a show dog is even more exacting and takes total discipline and commitment. Poor exercise, bad diet and the wrong training can ruin any dog, no matter how beautiful or well-bred. The Great Kafka would have been ruined in the hands of an amateur. A dog can not be ignored and abandoned to a dog-run because the owner has lost interest or does not wish to be inconvenienced by caring for the dog. A Doberman is a dog that bonds to people. It CAN NOT thrive with neglect and loneliness… it must live with its owner and share its owner’s life.

If you have never owned a dog before, there is no way you can possibly understand the commitment you are making to a dog. And, once you purchase a dog, this is not something that you can just change you mind about in a month (or a year) when you have gotten bored or tired of the work and commitment required to own a dog.

With respect to the Doberman, it is imperative that you have an experienced mentor, both early on to help with ear taping, grooming, training and conditioning… and later, to guide you on how to properly train and present the Doberman in the ring. No breeder wants to see a dog of their breeding presented incorrectly, or in poor weight or poor condition (with very poor muscle tone). There are more than 1001 wrong ways to train, condition and /or show a dog... and really only one way to do it right. There are no short-cuts. You will not learn the right way from a book or from a mediocre teacher/ mentor.

We are selective about where we place our puppies. We look for people we can trust to follow through on all aspects of the purchase agreement, which always includes the mandate that - if at any time and for any reason - the buyer desires to place the dog with a third party, the dog must come back to us. This is NOT negotiable.

Overall, a breeder wants to see a pattern of proven success. The breeder's worst nightmare is that a good puppy ends up in a home where someone - often someone new to the breed - would say, “Oh, I didn’t realize what I was getting myself into, this is too much work for me, I didn’t realize that I had to spend so much time to make the dog a great dog… I have lost interest.. I don’t want the dog anymore.” By then the puppy is ruined. The puppy will pay with it’s life for the ignorance and impulsiveness of the buyer. We intend to avoid such homes. We select, not based on the size of someone's bank account, but rather based upon their commitment to proved a healthy, loving, life-long home.

As a breeder and exhibitor our goal should be to have the best of the best… to show the very best and to breed the very best. Nothing less than the best is acceptable (or even worth our time). And remember, every dog you own and every time you step into the ring reflects back on you. Your reputation is your greatest asset. Never, ever, ever compromise your reputation. And never present less than the best. The road to excellence is one of commitment, discipline and hard work. There are no short-cuts; success over time is not something you can buy.

We wish all Doberman fanciers world wide the very best. Our intention is that years in the future we can point to anyone we've sold a puppy to and say, "This person is a Doberman owner / breeder we are proud to call a friend… and proud to recommend to others."